Discover how to approach office confrontations and harness healthy debate to propel your team forward. Our latest episode with leadership consultant Dotty Posto who helps leaders overcome the "Curse of Chordal Hypocrisy". Don't miss it!
Website – https://inplainsightinc.com/
E-mail - firstname.lastname@example.org
Leighann Lovely: [00:00:00] HR professionals, business owners and operations at all levels are struggling to figure out what needs to change. Our system has been shocked, practices have been questioned, and conversations are finally happening. We all know there has been a huge shift in what people want. Inclusion and diversity are common phrases, but often misunderstood.
Generations are coming together more than ever on what's important. Mental health has been brought to the forefront of everyone's mind. Let's humanize these conversations. Let's talk about what's important for employees to be successful in life and at their job. And how companies can create an environment to allow [00:01:00] them to do both.
Because successful people will make up a successful workforce. I'm Leighann Lovely. Let's get this conversation started. Dottie Posto, CEO and founder of In Plain Sight, a leadership consulting and coaching firm. How often in your organization do you think people are holding back what they really think or agreeing with a project or an idea when they really don't agree?
They're not saying what they really think. They're not saying what they really want to say, generally out of fear or out of loyalty. Yet outside the room, they agree with a person, they discount an idea, they discredit a leader or demean a team member. This is what Dotty calls the Curse of Chordal Hypocrisy.
It robs companies of creativity, productivity, [00:02:00] and ultimately profits. Dotty specializes in guiding leaders and teams in building trust, cultivating healthy debate, and ultimately establishing a culture of accountability and outstanding results. In addition, Dotty specializes in coaching those leaders or team members who are Quite frankly, a real jerk.
In other words, when your MVP is an ASS, these folks who rob your organization of innovation, engagement, opportunity, and ultimately revenue, Dottie guides these leaders to become the leader everyone wants to work with. Welcome Dottie. I am so excited to have you join me today.
Dotty Posto: I'm excited to be here. I think it's going to be fun.
Leighann Lovely: Yes. So why don't you start off by telling the audience a little bit about who you are and what you do?
Dotty Posto: Sure. I am a leadership [00:03:00] consultant and coach. And what I tell people is, you know, when you have that person in your office, either usually leader, but sometimes, you know, one of those office members, who's just a jerk, you know, yeah.
Yeah. So I specialize, I work with all sorts of leaders and teams and do leadership development and team development, but I do specialize with the leaders who've gotten Does not play well with others a few too many times on their report card. A friend of mine, Pat helped me coin the, the tagline for my business as when your MVP is an ASS.
That's where I come in and help that leader become the leader everyone wants to work for.
Leighann Lovely: That's awesome. Because there are some really brilliant people out there just don't get it that they're great at their job. But when it comes to actually leading [00:04:00] the team or communicating or having emotional It's just not, it's just not what, it's just not their strong point.
Dotty Posto: Yeah. I like to call it emotional fluency. Okay. I haven't heard that. Yeah. It's where, you know, under being able to be fluent, first of all, with all your own emotions. And then to be able to, I think the intelligence comes, you know, knowing there's a certain level of being intelligent, I can be intelligent about something, but not fluent and being fluent, emotional fluency is being able to ride all of the waves, experience all of them without getting caught up in them.
I mean, emotions are literally a vibration in our body. And too many people try to hold anything that they might refer to as negative. I call it constrictive. They try to hold it down like a beach ball underwater and it's going to pop up at some
Leighann Lovely: point. That's a really good analysis. Absolutely. And, and I, [00:05:00] I totally agree because when we even as children for a very long time, and this is changing.
Very much changing, but even as children, many people grew up with the idea that it's okay to laugh. It's okay to have fun, but if you're going to cry or if you're mad, go to your room.
Dotty Posto: Okay. Oh yeah. Yeah. It goes somewhere else or it's not, or don't, you know, you're going to upset daddy or you're going to, you know,
Leighann Lovely: it, and that's, that's not okay.
Like we need to understand that all emotion is normal. All emotion is okay. It's how we process and how we deal with that and that we're not allowed to, you know, go in. Punch somebody in the face. If we're feeling angry, that's not healthy, but that you need to, you need to take the moment to process that information because when you start laughing, people don't go, go to your room.
Most people are like, Oh, I'm going to laugh along with you. Unless you're in
Dotty Posto: school, [00:06:00] you know, the class clown was also, you know, the, the person who, you know, personalities have been damped down for so long that I don't, that I think so many people don't really know who they are at their core. That's yes.
And that's a lot of what I do is I help. I help people come back to who they are at their core. No one wakes up in the morning going, I'm going to be an asshole today. I'm sorry, but
Leighann Lovely: well, maybe somebody does, but they don't, they would never admit that that's the kind of person
Dotty Posto: they want to be. I know, but I kind of doubt it.
I don't, I kind of doubt they're like, I am just going to go in and be the. I'm gonna be the asshole of the, of the, you know, that's my job is to be, you know, and I think some people say it's my job to, to, you know, they, they've even learned from previous mentors that they had to lead in a very command and control and, and demeaning and degrading and aggressive that they had to be that.
You know, come out with your, with your gloves on kind of leader [00:07:00] and it's just not necessary. You can inspire, you can be firm. You can hold people accountable from a place of motivation and inspiration and, and firmness. And if you've got the base. If you've got the base and the foundation to that, that's been built on.
Leighann Lovely: So let's talk about that. So, I mean, you're, you obviously you're a coach and you're a coach, you're a consultant, you work with organizations, so you are brought in obvious and I'm going to guess that. Typically the person who is considered the ASS at the organization is not always the person who's engaging you, correct?
It's usually gonna be a board of directors, or it's gonna be a, you know, somebody who's either equal to them or above them who's gonna say, Hey, mm-Hmm . This person's highly intelligent, highly, we want them at our company. However, Dottie, what do we do? [00:08:00] How do you go about and where do you begin? This work
Dotty Posto: where we begin, if it's possible, I'll do a three 60, I'll have them do a three 60 assessment, or if they've had one recently to just at least get the perspective of their leader, get the perspective of any subordinates and get their perspective, their own perspective on what's happening.
And we really go in and start to look at. Where are their gifts and talents? Where are they spending their energy? What's, what's amplifying their energy and what's draining their energy? And are they fully aware of that? Because oftentimes they're engaged in activities that drain their energy and they don't realize it or engaged in activities that are just not in their unique ability.
They're not in their core talents. And when you do that, you have to know. That they're out of alignment so that you can resource yourself ahead of time to do those things and then also [00:09:00] have time to recover and re energize afterwards. So that's a big 1st step, getting that that assessment and and kind of gauging where they are in the self awareness.
Where do they really see and understand the impact that. Their, their actions are having, we don't go directly and focus on, okay, let's go and try and change those behaviors. Because if somebody just tries to white knuckle their way through changing behaviors, or if they're just sent to training, you know, I always call it the charm school, you know, they're sent to communications training and emotional intelligence training.
And if it doesn't come back to working on. What's going through your brain? Are you really aware of all the thoughts going through your brain, which none of us are because there's 60 to 80, 000 thoughts a day, but getting them to a point of that self awareness of what's going on in my head. And how is that making me feel?
Because oftentimes there's this baseline or this general [00:10:00] sense of annoyance, irritation, frustration, and We need to figure out they think it's coming from the people outside of them, and it's not at all. It's all coming from their thoughts. And so it's trying to help them make those connections so that they can choose different behaviors because just, you know, because if you can start to feel like I'm starting to get annoyed, where's that coming from?
I can feel the annoyance, getting that level of awareness where I have that, that agency and choice. So we take them from that deep awareness. Of first of all, where, where are my gifts and talents and where is my energy going? And what's, what is, am I aware of the impact that I'm having to start to really come into what, what is happening with.
What's going on in my head and how is that impacting and helping them see it's not everything out there because that's generally what most people think It's them. It's not me. They're overreacting or
Leighann Lovely: whatever [00:11:00] And as you're saying that, you know, I'm like again, you know the million thoughts that go through all of our heads right as you're saying this like I have these like situations or even even like And my audience, I go back to like, my husband comes home and he tells me all these stories about like, what's happening at his office or what's happening or not his office, but his, his employee employer or whatever.
And, and, and I, I try to become more self aware, especially when I'm around my five year olds, right? So, because as a parent. It's, it's very easy to get slipped into this, like, why isn't she doing what I'm telling her to do? And then you can feel the stress rise up in you. And then that tone happens in my voice.
And my daughter, like, knows when that happens. And then she just pokes the bear. And she's just like, ooh, mommy's upset. Like, and so then she just... Digs in and she's like, no, I'm not going to do that. And I'm like, but you have to do, like, why aren't you listening? [00:12:00] And it just, and it just snowballs into like me all of a sudden raising my voice.
My husband looking at me going, she's not going to react to you yelling at her. You know that she doesn't, she. thinks it's funny and it's like, okay. And so I've, I have personally, you know, tried to become more self aware, keeping my voice regulated, understanding when I can feel my blood pressure start to go up and we, we as people, it's much easier to see it happen in somebody else.
But it's really hard to recognize, you know, cause I, I'll look at my husband and go, is it happening to me? Am I starting to, is my voice going up? Like, and, and I'll do the same to him. Like, okay, you're getting annoyed. I'm gonna take over. You go, I don't know, outside and run around the block or something before you like have a heart attack because you're so, like I can see it in your shoulder.
And when you're at a job, [00:13:00] which you know, for me and you, we work remotely, we work, you know, we're independents were, so I don't have to watch it. So I listened to my husband's stories, but he'll come home and be like, Oh, you should have seen so and so today. You could just see in his walk, you know, and he's like, so I didn't talk to him because I knew that if I did, it would be an immediate explosion of just blah, blah, blah, blah.
And it's like, exactly.
Dotty Posto: And so many people. Are you get it? You've got a situation where if you have a leader that that is their modus operandi, that's their that's the mode they operate in on a consistent basis. They do exactly what your husband did. They avoid them, right? Or they please them. They agree with them.
It's what I call the curse of cordial hypocrisy. They please them, they say yes, they agree, and outside the room they're like, that's a bunch of garbage, [00:14:00] that'll never fly, that person's a jerk, you know, and that's all happening outside the room, and inside the room they're like, mm hmm, yeah, great idea, Joe, that's a, Jayden, that's a really good idea, I think we should do that, and outside the room they're like, that'll never fly, we've done that before and it failed.
Leighann Lovely: Oh my God, duh, right? And then no progress is ever made. And then you get
Dotty Posto: no creativity. You get productivity goes down the tubes because half the time, and if you've got a great, if you've got a remote workforce, even several, a few days a week. How much time are they spending on teams behind the scenes bitching and complaining, you know, talking about other people, talking about all the challenges and they're not productive, you're losing productivity, you're losing creativity, you're losing innovation, you're going to hit risks that nobody wanted to bring up because they were too afraid.
That something, you know, that something was going to, somebody was going to fly off the handle. I'm not saying anything. And no one wants to give feedback for the same reason, right? So not my job.
Leighann Lovely: Right. And if [00:15:00] it's, I'm
Dotty Posto: not going to say anything, I'm going to get, they're too afraid. They're either too afraid or they're too loyal.
Maybe they're worked with that person for so long that it's like, Oh, you know, they're going through a hard time, but you know,
Leighann Lovely: anybody is. And if you're a subordinate to that person, which is usually the case, You can't call the person out because you risk being fired or reprimanded or so this cycle will continue to, which is why high turnover in people who have managers like that because they either agree constantly and become the yes person or they do stand up and they say something and that manager goes, well, I don't need this.
stress, and they just get rid of the person because they think that person is the problem.
Dotty Posto: And that, that very well can happen. This is why one of the, one of the pillars of [00:16:00] what we do in organizations like this, because oftentimes it isn't just this one leader. So that's why I like pairing the individual coaching with some team development, whether that's, you know, the CEO and a senior lead senior leadership team, or a senior leader and their team.
Building a culture of feedback is so important, but you can't have that if you don't have the underlying trust. And if you don't have that opportunity, the opposite of the cordial hypocrisy, the healthy opposite of that is healthy debate. Can we have an argument about the ideas without getting personal, without being aggressive and, and, and even maybe our voices get loud.
But it's passion about the idea, and it's passion about the experience, and it's making sure that what we're doing is right for the company, you can, you know, getting to that passionate level of debate so that you can have a place where the subordinate can go to a person and go, you know, what, [00:17:00] what just happened in that room?
You know, you don't call them out right in the middle of the meeting. And some, some organizations get to that level where it's like, well, we need a timeout here. What just happened really, I think is hurting people in the room, you know, and there's organizations that have that level. But even if you could, even if you can build the culture to the point of being able to have a subordinate, go to their boss afterwards and say, Here's what I saw happen, and here's the impact that I saw on the team, and here's the impact that it had on me, and I think this is going to be destructive over time.
Leighann Lovely: Have you seen organization, and you know, this in my head, I'm like, that would be so amazing to work in an organization in which you had that level of trust with your manager as well as your subordinates. And I have, I've had the opportunity to work with. with people who reported to me and I, and, and, and every time I would say, I am not like, [00:18:00] I'm not a butterfly.
You don't have to, you know, handle me in a way. And if I ever say something, if I ever do something, if I ever make you feel uncomfortable in. Any way ever, you just need to come out with it, just plain and simple. I didn't like this. We'll talk about it. And most likely if, if it's, you know, if I made you feel uncomfortable, I'm going to apologize because it, there's, there's not going to be a debate about it because it's about your feelings.
You felt a certain way. And then I'm going to say, I'm sorry, I made you feel that way. Let's figure out how we can rectify that situation so that you don't feel that way again. Doesn't mean that I was necessarily wrong in that situation. However,
Dotty Posto: I, yeah, I think the language is really, you have to be really careful with that language because [00:19:00] our feelings come from our thoughts, right?
And so if I'm doing something, if a behavior I'm doing is having a negative effect. Yes. If it's hurting people, yes, I want to know that that negative impact is there, right? And we have to, I think there's people, it's a gray area in between because people can take it, you know, well, I can't make you feel anything because really our thoughts create our feelings.
However, there are things that we do and say that are, are just out of line and that are just rude and are from a place of, of.
What is the word? I can't even think of the word where it's, it's, they're, they're meaning harm, you know, and, and, you know, it's like the, the oath, the Hippocratic oath, do no, you know, first do no harm. Right. You know, as long as you're not intentionally harming. And sometimes we unintentionally harm people with what we say and what we do.
Right. And you can't just [00:20:00] pass that off. It's, it's our thoughts. And some people have a pattern of thinking that everything they see, they have this confirmation bias that everything they see is against them.
Leighann Lovely: Yes. And you're right. And I always what am I trying to say, you know, situations or perception is reality that, so the way that people perceive a situation.
That is the reality to them and the, the reality of, of each situation is yes, everybody's feelings of the difference that that's their own, I mean, we can have five people sitting in a room and all walk out feeling a completely different way. I can't control people's feelings. However, if I'm, if I am doing an action, let's say we'll use something really, really stupid as an example, but we're going to use it to really dumb this down.
If I have a manager who's, let's say an old school manager, cause I'm going to use an example. I'm going to kind of change the situation here a little [00:21:00] bit. I, I had a shirt that was to me being my age at that time, I was in my twenties. I didn't believe that it was that low of a cut shirt. Okay. But I had a much older manager when I was in my twenties and he pulled me aside, basically said it's inappropriate for the work setting.
And I'm like, Okay, but it's not that low cut. They had a special dress code and everything else. And his idea was you're making people feel uncomfortable with a shirt that is cut that low in the work environment. And I thought, how could I be making people feel uncomfortable? By wearing this type. Now, perception is reality.
If he felt uncomfortable because he didn't feel that it was business appropriate or business attire appropriate, perception is reality. To [00:22:00] him, he was my boss. So he basically put, and very tactfully said, and you know, I didn't find it in an appropriate conversation. It was, you know, people feel a little uncomfortable with what you're wearing.
Okay. That was a learning experience for me when I was in my twenties. Don't wear, and again, it's not like I had my breasts hanging out, but and so I've always made certain that if there are situations in which something that I'm doing, I would so much prefer that somebody just walk up to me and say, here's what, what your action was.
This is how I perceived it and therefore I feel this way. Okay, perfect. Let's lay all of our feelings out there. I then have a great
Dotty Posto: way to put it, right? This is what I perceive is. This is my perception of that action or that those words
Leighann Lovely: because I very [00:23:00] well did. I had no intent of walking into that office that day with a shirt that, I mean, that was not my intent at all.
In fact, I thought, wow, I look really great. I look really professional. That was my intent and that's how I perceived myself. And three other people said, well, you look great. Because again, perception is reality, but until we are told differently, our own perception cannot change until we step into somebody else's shoes and find out that there are alternative perceptions equaling then alternative feelings about it.
And that's where it gets to be such a sticky situation. Because you have no idea, and some of those things we can change. I mean, if somebody says red makes me feel bad, well, you can't, [00:24:00] you can't avoid wearing red at all. You know, that's, it's just one of those things that unfortunately you can't accommodate all situations.
But we can attempt to eliminate.
Dotty Posto: Yeah. Let me give you a perfect example of that. I I, I come from a family of seven. I have seven siblings. So there's eight kids and my two parents, my parents are gone now, but I grew up in a family of 10 people and it was loud. Everybody was loud. Most everybody. And my husband even says, yes, you come from the loud family.
And so oftentimes when I'm
But there's times where I start speaking like this and you can probably hear me just fine and this is lower than my normal volume and it's taken me. I still sometimes have to like, recalibrate, recalibrate [00:25:00] people would get offended and think I was yelling at them when I wasn't. It was just my natural voice.
And for some people, for some leaders, they might just say, well, that's just who I am. It takes time and practice. I had a peer on at the time who would sit next to me and under the table, he would just do this, which meant bring down the volume because I was, you know, part of it would be if I was getting excited and people would take it as I was getting angry.
I'm like, I'm almost never angry, but it's just, it's that habit that you. You don't even, I don't even hear it all the time because It was a habit that I grew up with that I think is just a part of who I am, and it's not. It's a habit. It's not a great habit. It's a habit.
Leighann Lovely: Have you ever been around a Greek [00:26:00] family?
My, my my dad married a Greek woman, okay? So, I think part of the reason I'm losing my hearing, or I'm having trouble with my hearing, is because in our family, you know, holidays, by the end, we'd all practically be losing our voice because it was a fight to be heard. Now my, we go to a restaurant and I, and I do really have problems with my hearing in background noise.
And that's, it's actually a lot more common than. Then I knew when you're at a networking meeting or you're at a restaurant that has, you know, music playing and my husband does this to me all the time, he'll look at me and go, why are you screaming at me? And I'm like, what are you talking about? And he goes, you're yelling.
And I'm like, Oh, I am. And I realize it's because there's music playing in the restaurant or there's people talking and I [00:27:00] can't hear him. So I assume it's loud. So I start yelling across the table
Dotty Posto: at him. Exactly. Exactly. And these are just, you know, silly examples and it's the same thing with a leader who is triggered by something, you know, that gets defensive and whatever their defense mechanism is that they probably learned when they were seven and they just don't realize it.
You know, it was, it was whatever habit that, that they developed to, to become, to be safe, to be heard, to be loved, to belong, to, you know, all of these things. And they're just patterns and habits that they, it's like water to the fish. They don't even know what's there. It is so ingrained and to be able to, to be able to some distance between that behavior and to get, get somebody who they trust, who can give them some kind of a sign, some kind of a thing, or even afterwards to say.[00:28:00]
It happened again, right? Or they could, you know, they could have a, a little facial, they'll put their finger on their cheek or, you know, maybe tap their chin or just something that says. It's happening again because bringing that level of awareness, giving somebody feedback after the fact is fine, you know, and if you do that enough, they're going to start to go.
Oh, yeah, I can kind of see that then you want to pull it back further so that as they are doing it, they can realize and they can drop the voice. They can do whatever and they can shift. See if they can shift, they can at least recognize it while they're doing it and they might not be able to shift. The next step is to pull it back where they recognize it in the moment and they're able to make the shift in the moment.
The, the, the real, you know, getting to the real point of mastery is where you can start to feel, well, there's two, two other levels. One is you start to feel the emotion that triggers that action. [00:29:00] And you can, you can feel it coming and you might not be able to stop it, but you can start to feel. And, and that's why helping people to actually feel the vibrations in their body for all the different emotions.
What does anger feel like? What was, what does annoyance feel like? What does irritation feel like? And all these have a slightly different vibration in our body and getting people to actually become in tune with that. And I actually have an exercise a tool that I use from a coaching program that I went through called the Tears of Emotions and getting people to actually purposefully feel all these different emotions.
And start to feel what does it feel like in their body? And where do I, do I feel, you know, do I feel something in my throat? Do I feel something in my gut? Do I feel something in the, the pit of my stomach or in my lower back? And when you can start to feel that, and sometimes you might not be able to stop it, you might still, you know, spew some garbage or, you [00:30:00] know, start to turn red and irritated or shut down.
You've got the other ones that. But just lean back and shut down, but getting to the point of then being able to say, here's how I want to intentionally come into this. You know, I know that, that, you know, in these kinds of situations, I tend to blah, blah, blah. I tend to, you know, raise my voice. I tend to shut down the conversation.
I tend to maybe cut up, cut people off and interrupt and try to go into it more intentionally, but the more they can use their thoughts to actually create a feeling of, I'm going to be open. I am going to be you know, and it's interesting, we, we were at an event together and I loved how the speaker put it being fertile ground, you know, how can, that's one thing is that, that I will use because active listening is one thing.
Being fertile ground for, you know, as a listener is a whole nother level.
Leighann Lovely: Correct. That, and I agree with that because and here's with everything that you just said, like, [00:31:00] as you were saying, like knowing your body's reaction, I, I early on I, my listeners know my mental health history. I struggled with anger management.
And so very early on in my, in my age, my journey I was taught how to understand because I used to get angry to the point of seeing red to the point where sometimes I wouldn't remember what I did after I hit that level where it would be like, okay, did I just do, what did I just do? And that has to do with my bipolar disorder.
So from a very early, when I started going through, I went through like three years of like intensive anger management. Again, tied to bipolar, it's not uncommon that people who have mental health also have, you know, other avenues. Anyways, point being is that I can feel My entire, I mean, that physical change that there's with emotion, you know, when you, when you laugh to the point of when you're [00:32:00] crying, you can feel your body usually get lighter.
You can feel those endorphins being released when you get angry. It's the same physiological. Change happening where you can feel that bubbling up to the point of, you know, and I, I can feel my whole entire face start to get red. I can feel the blood moving into in, you know, into my head. I can feel my hands start to shake and that has, it hasn't happened in so long.
I haven't been that. Angry because I'm able to stop it where I'm actually able to go. Okay, we need to breathe. We need to Evaluate that situation we need to but having that heightened awareness of your emotions you you're able to actually Control take a step back breathe or whatever it is that you do in order to Kind of control that and then go, okay, let me assess the situation.
Like, should I be this angry? Should I be [00:33:00] this emotional? Should I be and sometimes it is, especially sadness, I think is one of the ones that kind of, it's hard to control that. Because usually, you know, if there's a death of the family, those types of things are, are probably the most difficult, but, and I think
Dotty Posto: the word control is very appropriate and yet very cautionary.
Yeah, and the reason I say that is that. If you're in a situation where that emotion isn't appropriate. And oftentimes we want to distinguish between. Am I feeling my emotion? Am I allowing the emotion, which is a vibration in our body, or am I expressing it? Those are two very different things. Right. To, to actually raise your voice, to pound your fist on the table, to scream, to cry, to, to whatever it is.
That is the expression that [00:34:00] is a performative expression of that emotion. The emotion is actually a vibration in our body and we can allow it. And regardless, if, if sometimes you need to have a physical release of an emotion, it might not be in that moment. I always recommend to people make a promise to yourself.
That at five o'clock when you get home or six o'clock, whatever, when you're in a space where you can, you promise yourself that you're going to feel it right. And maybe in that moment, you don't get as angry as you thought you might have been. And we don't want to just stuff them down because again, it's like trying to hold the beach ball underwater.
Right. Eventually it's going to pop up. Right. People end up with strokes, heart attacks you know, different internal diseases. Cancer all sorts of things because we've stuffed our emotions down for so long,
Leighann Lovely: right? And you're right control is not the rights.
Dotty Posto: It's what it is I mean, it's [00:35:00] controlling you want you may want to control the situation.
So I think it can be appropriate I want to control my reaction. Yeah, because in the moment, I don't want to react so I think control is a great word I just don't want people to interpret that as I have to control it and then close the door on it. Like I'm pushing, I'm going to, I'm going to, I'm going to close the door and leave it there.
That's how I control it. That's
Leighann Lovely: different. Yeah. No, not shoving it in a closet to never be seen again, but
Dotty Posto: it's, it's what's appropriate in the moment. What's going to actually move the conversation forward. What is going to get us the goal we're looking for? And maybe for some people it might be. You know what?
Something I'm triggered in this and I am so angry. I cannot have this conversation right now. Give me 10 minutes. Let me go. I need to go take a walk. I need to go think about this. I need to and really what they need is they need to go allow the emotion for a while, right? And whatever that looks like. A lot of people will go and say, I'm going to go for a run.
I'm going to go for a [00:36:00] walk. And all they're doing again is avoiding the emotion. I'm going to go
Leighann Lovely: take a baseball bat to your car. No, I'm sorry. That is an unhealthy expression. Go scream in a pillow.
Dotty Posto: Or I always, this is one way I recommend people. If you do feel like you can't like one of you have, it is bubbling up so hard and you can't allow it.
Is take a plastic baseball bat to your bed. Yeah. You know, those kids baseball bats
Leighann Lovely: take that to the bed. Mine was, mine was the screaming in a pillow, just laying down and just screaming at the top of my lungs. And it was like, okay, now I feel great. That's, that's all I needed to do. I just needed to release whatever that was that like bubbled up in me and, and now I'm fine.
Like, and it's different for everybody. Like, you know, and sometimes it was, I need to go and cry for a second. Don't tell me that this is a situation in which I don't need to [00:37:00] cry. There's no reason to feel it. I just need to feel it, you know, and now that we are finally getting to a point in society where it's like.
Oh, it's okay to feel emotion. Like I'm not ashamed to be like, yep, I give me 10 minutes. I'm going to go feel what I need to feel. I'm going to go, I don't know, be pissed off at the situation for 10 minutes and then clean my face up and I'll be right back and then we can have dinner. Yeah. Yeah.
Dotty Posto: Exactly.
Because when our emotions are so heightened like that. We are in fight, flight, or freeze. And when we're in fight, flight, or freeze, our prefrontal cortex goes offline. We literally do not have access. To our thinking, planning, strategizing, we can't be logical because all the brain, all of the blood comes out of that part of our brain that fight, flight, or freeze, it goes [00:38:00] to the big muscle group so that we can run or defend and our body goes in to defend.
Because we literally think that we're going to die. Our brain, our primitive brain, is literally thinking that we're going to die. Interesting. Our primitive brain and our prefrontal cortex... They've evolved differently. And so we have to understand that this is all natural, right? It is natural for you to get pissed off because you think that this person, like there's your body, your brain, that primitive part of your brain thinks you're actually, you know, it's like get back in the cave, you know, or go fight the law, you know, because you're going to die, right?
We are trying to save humanity here. That's what you're, that's what your permanent brain is thinking. We are trying to save you.
Leighann Lovely: Wow. That's, and that's, it, it makes. Yes. It makes sense because every other creature, every other mammal out there has that [00:39:00] innate Instinctual reaction to either run or fight, whereas
Dotty Posto: did you ever see a bird hit a window and then it lays on the ground for a while and you think it's dead.
Leighann Lovely: Oh, yeah. I've picked him up before and like, I should get rid of this. And then they go like, right. And then you're like, Oh, my God.
Dotty Posto: They're totally fine. Right. You know. It happens in the, in the in the, in the, you know, out on the, the, what the planes, whatever, out in, you know, where an animal will play dead because then they might be left alone.
Leighann Lovely: I had a hawk hit my, my front door. I mean, a huge, huge hawk. It sounded like somebody was trying to break into my house. And and then it sat for eight hours. Eight hours. In our neighborhood and, and my neighbors were like, we couldn't understand why this hawk wouldn't leave. And I'm like, how long did it sit in your yard?
They're like, for like four hours. And I'm like, Oh my God, because it hit so hard [00:40:00] that it, it couldn't move. It just, and it was beautiful. I mean this, I've never seen one. So, cause it was, I mean, this thing was, I'm making hand gestures like my audience can see me, but yeah, that's and so it's, it's goes.
To show that, you know, animals and we are an animal and, but because we're intelligent, we think that, that we're beyond our, our, you know, nature, which is not true. No,
Dotty Posto: so that part of our brain is still there. We just have to, you know, and my, the coach that I went through training with says. It's like a two year old with a knife, right?
You know, and I always call it a two year old with a red crayon in a white room. Yeah. Yeah. You know, fun times. And it's like, you can, you can allow them to be there. Somebody else talks about it as you can allow that to be there. You can allow that part of you to be there. Just don't leave them in the driver's seat, put them in the backseat saying, yeah, you can come along.
Anxiety, [00:41:00] depression, you know, I gotcha. You know, I understand you're here today. You're here along with me. I'm going to carry you around like a heavy purse or whatever it is. You know, but don't let them, don't put them in the driver's seat. How do we not allow them to get into the driver's seat? Right.
Leighann Lovely: So you and I want to cover this really quick because we're coming to time already and geez, but you use a triple the triple a foundation, often authenticity, accountability and action. How do you, I mean, and we've talked quite a bit about, you know, the different ways that, that you work with these individuals, how, how does that play a role?
Dotty Posto: So. Authenticity this, I mean, probably 15 years ago, I even came up, I mean. When I, what I talked about earlier, who we are at our core, helping people come back to who they are at their core. What are your preferences? What are your gifts? What are your talents? And operating from that, starting to [00:42:00] know about what that part of that, what that developed self is that you developed around it, those habits and patterns that served you as a five year old that served you as a teenager that served you as a young adult that just no longer serve you.
And. helping to come to that awareness. So that to me is the authenticity piece. Okay. The accountability piece is then becoming responsible as how can I hold myself responsible and accountable for being that person and for, for being aware of that developed self and being aware of what I. What I have agency over getting agency over those habits and patterns that have ruled our life for so long my life, anyone's life, and I've ruled our life for so long and then building.
I use the 5 dysfunctions of a team often. So accountability from a team perspective. Has to do with building trust, healthy debate and commitment in that order to [00:43:00] get to that point of accountability. Only then can we actually start to look at, okay, what actions are we going to do differently? Yes. And you walked through
Leighann Lovely: all of those
Dotty Posto: and we can't just focus on action because then we're just trying to white knuckle.
And like I said, the other piece of it is our thoughts and our feelings drive our actions. Our thoughts drive our feelings. Our feelings drive our actions. You know, they'll tell you that in sales, everything is an emotional sale. We only buy something because of how we think it's going to make us feel.
Right. And we feel that way because how we think about it, because you're going to buy something for a very different reason than I'm going to buy it. Absolutely.
Leighann Lovely: And that's, and, and I love the study, obviously you, you know, I love the study of people. The reason I have this podcast, the reason I go into the reason I have a sales business is because everybody is unique.
Everybody has unique needs, but there is a product out there that people will buy all for their own selfish reason. And to solve the problem and are driven [00:44:00] by their own selfish, and that's not a bad thing by their own selfish desire to solve the problem. And if it's a personal thing, the way that it makes them feel at the end of the day, you know, so we are coming to time and I want to ask you the question of the season.
This season it is what do you think will go down in the history books of what the world has experienced over the last three years?
Dotty Posto: You know, when I first looked at this question, the thing, you know, when you look at 3 years, obviously COVID is such a huge part of that. And it would be very interesting to, you know, I heard recently about some people who worked on COVID 5 years before it hit the U.
And, and was, were a part of some research, research and things and. The research got shut down. And so they ended up working for a company out of China because they could see what was coming. That that's [00:45:00] kind of like the, what seems to be like the no brainer answer is COVID when you look back the last three years, and I don't think we're far enough into it, and I think this whole, the whole situation between Palestine.
And Israel is probably a potential for making the history books. I'm not close enough to it. I don't know enough about it and where things are going to, what I'm hearing about it in terms of how long it's going to last. I think if we look from here back, COVID is obviously one of the big things, I think from here going forward is potentially this, you know, the situation with the Ukraine and, and Russia and then Palestine and Israel.
Leighann Lovely: And it's, it's amazing how how much this world has changed. In such a short period of time, what [00:46:00] we, what if, you know, had somebody asked me four years ago what the world would have looked like, there is no possible way that anybody could have predicted the amount of things that have happened in such a short period of time with, you know, a world shutdown with, you know, another uprising.
I mean, these are just. Moments in history repeating themselves, but another uprising with, you know, riots in the street you know, race wars another possible, I mean, with everything happening, is this going to turn into a world war depending on so yeah, I mean, it's, it's such a, such a strange time in history that so many things are being squashed into a very, short time spanned that it's that it's wildly interesting.
So if somebody wanted to reach out to you how would they go about doing that? [00:47:00]
Dotty Posto: My website is inplainsiteinc.com or they can email me at dotty @ inplainsightinc and it's plain P L A I N and site S I G H T. So inplain, dotty at inplainsightinc. com. D O T T Y that is not D O T T I E D O T T Y at in plain sight, inc.
Leighann Lovely: com. Excellent. And that'll be in the show notes for anybody who is interested in reaching out to Dottie. I'm sure that you can also find her on some social media platforms, but you know, please feel free to reach out to her if you are looking for a coaching and consulting, if you have a leader that.
Is an ASS . It was an awesome conversation. Dotty, I really appreciate you coming on and talking with me. It's been a, it's been a blast. Thanks for having me, Leanne. Thank you again for listening to Let's Talk hr. I appreciate your time and support. Without you, the audience, this would not be possible, so don't forget that.
If you enjoyed this [00:48:00] episode to follow us, like us or share us, have a wonderful day.
Adam Gellert serial entrepreneur and lifer in the staffing industry joins me for a very enlighten conversation about the future of staffing and the workforce as we know it. Adam now the Founder and CEO of HireHippo and The Linkus Group Inc. permanent placement firms that take a different approach to hiring individuals. As he has moved through his career, he saw gaps in the market and have shifted to fill those gaps. Now offering a network of top talent of passive candidates, eliminating resume reviews and focusing on skills and culture. Join this amazing conversation with a forward-thinking entrepreneur.
HR professionals, business owners and operations at all levels are struggling to figure out what needs to change. Our system has been shocked practices have been questioned, and conversations are finally happening. We all know there has been a huge shift in what people want. inclusion and diversity are common phrases. But often misunderstood generations are coming together more than ever on what's important. Mental health has been brought to the forefront of everyone's mind. Let's humanize these conversations. Let's talk about what's important for employees to be successful in life and at their job and how companies can create an environment to allow them to do both because successful people will make up a successful workforce. I'm Leighann lovely. Let's get this conversation started.
Leighann Lovely 01:09
Adam Gellert is on a mission to build the greatest marketplace of pre vetted diverse high potential candidates and companies, reshaping the job application process with candidate experience and helping companies hire their most passionate teammates from one to 250. He eats, sleeps and breathes recruitment. He can talk for hours about anything to do with growth of an organization from a people standpoint, attraction, retention, culture fit alignment and best practices in the modern world. He's an entrepreneur at heart currently on a mission to reshape recruitment and change the candidate experience. Founder and CEO at hire hippo, a hiring marketplace connecting pre vetted high potential diverse candidates and companies based on mutual interest like a dating app and saying goodbye to resumes. He noticed a gap in the industry as a founder of Linksys group, a recruitment firm supporting startups and SMBs in Canada and US. His typical clients is under 50 people. He started the company with the intent to disrupt the recruitment industry. And they are doing just that he has a fantastic team. And they work very hard to build championship teams for their clients that can sustain a winning outlook again and again since 2002. He has been instrumental in building teams both at the corporate and recruitment agency levels. He is known for building strong relationships with clients as an honest, driven and progressive individual with major organizations across Canada and the United States. With a passion for delivering cost savings and efficient business results. He took the next step in offering clients an alternative to traditional hiring. He's active in the tech startup and small business community co created the talent help list co created the disrupt HR Vaughn and previous chair, hR p a PD dinner committee, their leading KPI, it's their reoccurring clients a testament to the value they bring. I am very excited to talk to Adam, a serial entrepreneur. Adam, welcome. I am excited to talk with you today. Thank you for joining me.
Adam Gellert 03:36
Thank you very much for having me. Appreciate being here.
Leighann Lovely 03:40
Yeah. So why don't you start off and, you know, tell everybody a little bit, you know, a little background about who you are and what you do.
Adam Gellert 03:48
Yeah, so I'm Adam Gellert, the founder of the linkage group, and higher tempo. Essentially, I run both a high touch recruiting agency as well as a recruitment technology that we will, that we believe will change the face of how people get hired and how companies hire their high performers. Essentially, what the tech does is works with SMBs and startups that go from one to 250 people on getting quick access to exclusive high potential pre vetted talent without having to worry about recruiting the recruiting process, they can skip the entire recruitment process and go straight to interview because we do all that upfront work for them with the technology so that's what I'm doing now also involved, co founded the talent helpless, which was a COVID layoff list. It was like the first of its kind that I'm aware of anyways, and disrupt HR Vaughn, which is global HR disrupt, disrupt as a global HR brand. So I'm just obsessed and very involved in the recruitment process that I have been for the last two decades, essentially. You know, we can talk about anything to do with attraction, hiring, retention, and that's just a bit about me.
Leighann Lovely 05:20
Awesome. Yeah, you are. You're a serial entrepreneur, you've been in the industry of staffing in one way or another for the last two decades. That is, that's amazing. So, you know, I say that, once you're in the staffing industry, you're either a lifer, or you run like how the other way after a couple of years because you can't handle the stress. So you're clearly a lifer in the staffing industry, which is, which is awesome, because it's, it definitely grabs hold of you, doesn't it?
Adam Gellert 05:53
Oh, yeah. I like pain. I like pain.
Leighann Lovely 05:58
Right? That's that? Yep. Absolutely.
Adam Gellert 06:01
Yeah, I find that like, you know, just based on, you know, what you said, I It's so true, right? Like most people, it's the, you know, industry that most people just I don't like it when, you know, people won't not necessarily don't like but you know, a lot of people say Hey, should I get into recruiting because I like people or like connecting people. And it's not just, you know, it's very surface level expectation of the industry and the role, it's extremely hard. You know, it can be life sucking at times that can be very thankless, and you just have to have a like, really big passion for developing really strong connections in, in the work environment, making sure that it's a long term game with long term people. And that, you know, essentially, like you can, you can, you know, roll with very hard scenarios and, you know, still love connecting people that can accelerate their career and companies that can, you know, hire their top performers that go on to really, really great things. That's the key. It's a business strategy over a people strategy.
Leighann Lovely 07:16
So tell me about Linksys because you said that this is a tech, it's technology connecting people. What type of recruitment is this? Is it? Is it on the general labor? Is it high level individuals explain what that app or that technology does?
Adam Gellert 07:37
Yeah, that's, that's a fair question. So Linkous is our high touch agency, where we focus primarily on senior director level and executive searches for SMBs for small, medium sized businesses and startups looking to, to go from sort of bootstrap to Series B. So we focus on the small business market, mainly, talent that's interested in startups, the roles that we work on are, are very diverse, we always say that, like, you know, we'll be as selective as, as, as our clients. And the main thing is that the role has to be hard to fill as to be very niche, right? Like if the, if our clients can do it on their own, we're just not, it's just, you know, we kind of let them do it on their own and say, Hey, like, you know, we're gonna scour the market and make sure that you get the best person which comes back to like, what I wanted to create when I started this, which was, you know, we run basically on one KPI which is repeat business, I found that a lot of other agencies and why I kind of wanted to almost, you know, quit the space was it was very much, you know, throwing spaghetti at the wall. That's a term that a lot of companies use that they're like, this is why we don't like working with recruiters. It was very, like, quantity over quality. I mean, you know, it's to no recruiters fault necessarily, it's people are drip are incentivized by these like high quality high quantity you know, outreaches so, you know, our focus is just really like high quality engagements and repeat business and then we do we created after about, you know, five years of being in business, what we found is that a lot of our customers graduated from us so they would hire you know, engineers, sales and, you know, Customer Success staff or their, you know, do CTO and once they hit about 50 people, they would start bringing in recruiters right because they would say hey, you know, we're getting to this size we've got you know, a lot more money we're invulnerable sleazy for for these niche roles, but we're gonna use recruiters and then to the recruiters all the time and they would say, you know, hey, we're using like LinkedIn. And we're using like other tools that are out there. And Dede was not driving back great quality results, they are that quantity game, right. So a lot of time is spent going through applications, and sitting in unfit interviews. And it's a poor waste of not only recruiter that wants to excel in their career, I mean, you want to be having great conversations. And so what we wanted to do is create a very niche, you know, marketplace of high potential pre vetted, exclusive talent, where they could post a role to the people that they actually want to interview, not the whole world. And that's how hired hippo came to be. And so we've do the same industry, you know, full time, sales, marketing, customer success. In the app, we don't focus on tech, actually. So it's more non tech roles, customer facing roles on the text on on our on our app, and that sort of long story short,
Leighann Lovely 11:09
right? So do the the, do the candidates come to you? Or are you out there sourcing them? And then introducing them to your app?
Adam Gellert 11:21
Yeah, great question. So we, like a recruiting agency, we go after high potential passive talent, right? And we say to them, like, look, we're going to identify what's really important to you in terms of your next salary, your you know, how close are you to your house? Or is it remote in office hybrid? You know, what are the alignment factors that are super important for you to be successful, happy and stay at a job for a really long time, we have a 95% retention rate of candidates that stay here and beyond, just within the app, where companies and candidates are connecting directly to each other. And it's because we do that due diligence into alignment and weighed certain questions and answers together to form like a really good match. And so we do go out and, you know, market to and, and, and talk to candidates, and most of the candidates that we talked to are not actively looking for new role, they're not going to apply through LinkedIn. And indeed, they may or may not answer a LinkedIn request, they may or may not get a referral. You know, they're, they're, you know, content, but they're open to potentially a new opportunity, maybe not now, maybe down the line. And so we have sort of, like that recruiter pool available to our customers
Leighann Lovely 12:50
interesting. And that's, you know, you get to a certain level of your career, where, you know, you're you are happy, but there's certain you max out, you hit the ceiling, right, where, you know, I've been now at this company for 10 years, you at a certain level, and there are certain individuals who they really that that's like the time limit of you expect them to be at this company for 10 years, they've done everything they can possibly do. So that's a perfect place for them to be able to say, Okay, now I've, I've fixed all the problems at this company. Now, I'm basically just kind of sitting here doing and at a certain level, you know, those individuals then move on to fix the next company. And you see that sometimes in CEOs CFOs, you know, those high level C suite type, you know, positions, or whether that be a, you know, a director of sales who their, their specific, I guess, role is to go in and fix the sales department and get them up and operating. And then they move on to another role where they go in and they specialize in fixing. And that would be like, the perfect type of app for them. Because yeah, hey, I'm not ready to move now. But I might be ready in two or three years. And if those are really niche, or really high level positions, I would want my information out there so that I'm constantly like, hey, if I am a match to a company that could be looking and then another one to two years, then yeah, look at my information and tell me if I'm the could be, you know, it's it's it's great transparency on both sides. But it's also letting people know, like, here's here's the thing, I don't I don't want to put my resume on indeed or those other places because I don't want to get slammed and and I recently went through this where all of a sudden, I'm getting slammed with all these people who are like, Hey, are you looking for a job here? Are you looking for a job? And I got like 30 requests for jobs that one I would never in a million years be interested in and to wear and not to sound like I'm boasting about myself. We're way beneath me. Again, you smile. But yeah, that I mean, it sounds like it's a great, a great app, a great way to connect people of a certain skill level or a certain position with companies who are looking for very specific people.
Adam Gellert 15:22
Yeah, that's exactly it. I mean, you hit so many great points there. You know, jobs are really just business problems that need to be solved. And like you said, sometimes you are in to solve that. No one project or, you know, you did so well, that, and you keep doing so well, that you kind of, you know, put yourself out of out of a role and a lot of people approach us in those in those scenarios that want to start looking before or, you know, the company is about to exit. You know, there's there's hundreds of scenarios, right, it all comes down to alignment. And like Reed Hoffman from LinkedIn says it's about a tour of duty. Right. So, you know, we, I do talk a lot about like you do three years, like, it depends on the environment, what's happening, right, like, there's so many intangibles, but, you know, three years would be a good time to, you know, have the ability to make some really good impact. You could be at a place for 1015 years and continue to grow. But it's, that's not always the case. Right? So I mean, most people change jobs every 18 months, was like the last stat that I read, right? And so what we find is that there's a lot of great people that, you know, are, you know, open and ready, and the pain for them is that they have to go look on job boards, they have to look at applying, and then they have to like, you know, message the hiring manager on LinkedIn to stand out or get a referral. And now everybody's doing that, right. So that's just not the best way to stand out. Because everyone's messaging, the hiring manager, everyone's sending, you know, a cake with your name on it, right? Like it's not, it's not something completely different than then, you know, when you were the first or second person to do that. So what we find is that look, recruitment, the recruitment process sucks for both companies and candidates. It's a very lengthy time consuming process for candidates, and you could make the wrong career choice or career trajectory. Because you're not thinking about, you know, do I want to be five minutes goes to my house, do I want to be remote? Do I want to be in office and hear other people on the phone? Because that's where I'm at, in my current life? Maybe? You know, maybe I just had a kid and I want to be at home like, there. Everyone's different, right? No, two people are the same. No two work environments are exactly the same. And we found that by just digging in, this is like, 20 years worth of research on, you know, what's a really high quality match, and we don't get it right 100% of the time, but we like to think we get it right close to that. Right. So figuring out what motivates candidates to make a career move, are they making the right decision and just show them those roles, will eliminate all a lot of the pain that you talked about? Which is, you know, I might have to always consistently think about my next career move. What if there was this product that was thinking about that for me? And I don't have to talk to 100 recruiters, I don't have to wait till it's too late. That kind of thing.
Leighann Lovely 18:31
Right? Right. And that's, and that is the problem, when you do get to a certain level that if all of a sudden you don't have a job, it takes time, because there are not, you know, like a, like a general laborer position, when you've got 30 positions open down the street, there, there's not that many sea level positions that that are right for you just waiting for you to step into. I mean, there's a finite amount. And I have worked and I'm sure you've worked with, when, you know, all of the sudden you see, you know, a CEO, or a director of change management or some weird, weird role, that you're like, Okay, what exactly do you do? That person will sometimes end up unemployed for months, a year. I have, I'm working with somebody who has been unemployed now for a year and a half. Because he's, he just doesn't want to relocate again. And right now, where he's located, there aren't any positions that suit him. Especially at his 140k salary.
Adam Gellert 19:50
Yeah. So yeah, I mean, here's the thing that I'm you know, I'm gonna say that, you know, I don't think everyone's gonna be happy with like, people. We really shouldn't be out of a job, and it's not their fault, it's that we haven't set people up for success. So I don't want to put the blame on anyone and I, you know, feel awful when someone has been knocked down, you know, hundreds of times for a year and a half, that's like the worst thing that I would ever want to see. And this is what keeps me in recruiting because, you know, I really believe that everyone should wake up fulfilled in, you know, when they go to work and fulfilled when they go home at the end of the day and happy with what they're doing, but employed in something and not have to, you know, try and find a job for a year and a half. But you know, you're you're right, again, it's, it's, there are more jobs than there are people, right. And so, there, we just haven't put people in a position to be able to, you know, change career paths at the right time and the right angle, right. I don't think enough employers let people go and flourish when they need to, like some of the I know, a lot of people don't like firing and letting people go, but it's about being a very savant leader. And, you know, really being empathetic and understanding where people are in their career and where they could go are foreseeing that, you know, maybe this particular industry or this nice industry is, you know, going to be super tough, we're going to be oversaturated, right. And so, think all the way from the education system to, you know, recruiting and beyond. And, you know, how we, you know, are empathetic in terms of outplacement, like, we need to help people get and figure out early, you know, if they're in the right position to do the right roles, and then, you know, kind of be set on that proper trajectory. So I could go on to more detail, but that's sort of like the broad scope.
Leighann Lovely 21:59
Right. So let's shift gears here for a second. Like we mentioned, you've been, you've been a founder, a co founder of multiple businesses, like you mentioned, through that process, you've obviously learned, you know, a ton, I'm gonna guess, you know, from the first business that you, you know, helped found or founded. Something like that. I'm gonna guess that you have learned a great deal. And obviously, the economy has changed so much over I mean, going through 2000, you know, AIDS going through the pandemic, what, what has been, other than the demand for a change in candidate experience? What has been the the glaring, you know, like, red light blinking in your face of like, this really needs to change?
Adam Gellert 23:02
Yeah, definitely, we've been sort of like rocked the last several years. Right. So I mean, I started my company after recruiting for another company, in the 2008 financial crisis, right. And so, there's a lot that I've kind of, like learned by essentially just being sort of like crazy, determined. And, you know, following my passion and skill combination, it can't just be passionate. It can't just be skill, right? Because you are going to face adversity. And you need to figure out how to continue on, I think, guilt, that's sort of important when people are thinking about those career choices over the last few years. I think the more obvious ones are remote work, flexible work schedules, and like getting more away from the hustle culture. Right. But I think, what's happened, and I think what's happened, that's good. And it kind of ties into my comment about being able to get employed and into a place where you feel fulfilled at the end of the day. And I think that it's less obvious, maybe becoming more obvious, is the idea that we're going to move into this multi career system. have been talking about this for a few years, but I think it's becoming more and more obvious that you know, what we consider maybe side hustles people that have multiple income streams, is kind of the future, right? So, you know, the obvious scenario is Uber, an Uber driver, and working at a tech company, right. But I, you know, that makes people think, oh, this person must work 60 hours a week or 80 hours a week, right? But what I really see is like with the introduction of AI, you can actually be a lot more productive and efficient in your job and You know, if you become sort of, you know, irreplaceable in the fact that you're like the master of your, your job or your function and solving that business problem of where you're working, that you will be able, you'll be able to be a lot more efficient. And you know, two days, three days a week, right, which is why we're seeing these things. And if you want to increase your, you know, ability to make money, it could be doing Uber driving, you'd still stick to that, like 40 hours a week, or whatever it is, or content creation, or, you know, helping at a, you know, food bank or, you know, hospital or, you know, hospice care, whatever it is, right. There's just so many opportunities, I think, to work, and I don't think income is going to come from one place, I think that'll be very unlikely to happen.
Leighann Lovely 25:57
And do you think that's, that's a cultural shift? Or do you think it's a generational thing?
Adam Gellert 26:08
I think it's a bit of both. I also think it's a fact of survival, survival, it's like things just cost more, you know, when we used to, so the most obvious example that I think is that, you know, the generation before you said, generational, so the generation before us, you know, was in their job for life, right, and they don't understand why you would go follow your passion or follow your, you know, a different career path, right. And we lived in this sort of, like, unknown is that a good play? Is that not a good play, and, right now, there are no 40 year jobs left, or will be in the future, it's unlikely, because things change so fast that, you know, even founders, for example, right, you might be a good founder to take it from concept and assumption and Bootstrap to a million dollars, but you're not the right person, take it from a million to 10 million, because you don't have that experience. And so you have to step away. And so it's not just, you know, the, you know, what we might consider other roles, it's like roles across the board, right? Even athletes, right, you're just at a certain stage, and that's what you're good for that position you play. So you know, from, from this big shift in how we work in work tech, and the whole scale up of AI in our industry, it's just a matter of, you know, how we have to re think and reimagine what work looks like, and how we spend our day, you you
Leighann Lovely 27:41
said something so, so absolutely brilliant, right there. Because it's a concept that is so hard for so many individuals to wrap their head around. And you made reference to, you know, as a founder, as a founder, you may be really good at starting up organizations and taking that from, you know, zero to a million, and you talk to, you know, again, go hire a coach, they'll teach you how to take it from a million beyond Well, that may not be what you're capable of doing. That meant, and you said, as if one of you may have to step away and sell it or handed off, right. And the concept that it's so hard for some of the and I'm not picking on because again, you're not you weren't picking on like the older school, the the older generation, they got a job, they stayed at that job. It was that was what they did. That was that was their mentality. And the concept that they struggle with is you can have a great person, but if that great person doesn't have the right seat on the bus, it no matter what you try to tell them to do, it's not going to work, right? It just they're not, they're not going to be able to wrap their head around, like how do I do this? Because their mindset, their passion, their, you know, knowledge, their technical ability falls within a different realm. And that is, I think, why we, as a society now see so many people doing the, okay, I'm going to stay here for five years. You see this in the hospitality industry. And I did not know this until I actually had interviewed somebody who who was from the hospitality industry. They see a lot of turnover they see it especially in the higher up because they come in, they create their concept of here's what's really going to make this hotel, this brand of the hotel, great. They go in, they implement all of their changes. They're there for you know, a finite period of time they move on, and they go to the next one and they implement what works or what they have historically seen work. And there's plenty of industries out there that do that. And that's why we see people come and go in industries, which didn't happen in the past. But that's the way the world works now versus 4060 years ago, where things weren't changing, like you mentioned, technology is changing so much, that in order for companies to keep up and I know I talk with my hands This is Audio Only, anyways. Technology is changing so much that accompany has to have the person that's leading it understand where that technology is. And sometimes that means that changing that person every five years, who is aware of what that technology, what that economical environment looks like, in order for that company to continue to thrive and make that company continue to grow and work. And I think that it's necessary in our environment where, like I said, 4060 years ago, it wasn't, because while we still had changes happening, technology was not nearly as an again, manufacturing, I come from much more of a manufacturing, staffing. You know, we still to this day, talk about while manufacturing is so far behind. Even today, even on the practices that they do, you know, in a lot of the things, you know, you still walk in and they're still in this is just, you know, example, while they're still taking all hand notes, they're still you know, what, they're machines, everything is still on paper, why do you have these big stacks of paper that explain the job that you're working on? Why don't you have iPads or, or something that connects to your, you know, your systems, your ERP systems? It's like, how are you not to that point yet? But you know, and then you ask the leaders, and they're like, Well wouldn't work for us? And it's like, well, have you tried? Have you looked into the systems, or just, it would not work here, and then you you talk to the person and they're like, Well, I've been at this company for 45 years, it wouldn't work here. We'll get some fresh blood in here. And I guarantee somebody who is, you know, young, hungry to make their mark would figure out a way to make it work.
Adam Gellert 32:41
Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, to that point, like, also don't feel like it's, you know, a lot of people's faults, like things just didn't change fast, right? Previously, so they didn't have to change and people hate, you know, standing up in front of a crowd, but they all say change, too, right? So, you know, if there's something that they believe to be working, they won't change or don't see, right. So it's like, it's not even like individuals, like there are so many examples of this happening with like, you know, some of the smartest people in the world, right, so like, you know, Blockbuster, like, they just didn't see that change, they didn't do it. You know, that wasn't the person operating the manufacturer to build the DVDs or, you know, do the graphic design, it's, it's really hard to understand what is happening in the future. But I think there are two things that the next generation really needs to focus on its financial independence and financial, like education and understanding. And, you know, what, where careers are headed and where careers are going and how you can kind of make an impact because it was okay to work, you know, a job for so many years before, because there were only so many jobs rolling so many options, you couldn't go, you know, work remotely from your house in Canada, and then do a job in the states you couldn't, there weren't as many coffee shops, there was like five, right? So you couldn't go learn from a different set of leaders or a different set of peoples or get benefits from a company like Starbucks, there just weren't those choices. And because choices and options, there's, you know, all pretty well endless at this point. Which, you know, I think the most important thing for coaches to do is to help people kind of help identify, you know, where could you, you know, excel in another area, instead of being sort of like one of many, you're kind of like a master of one and figuring out how you go through that. Those those kinds of paths to get there. So, yeah, it's just it's a it's I think it's just that the fluctuation and the speed at which things change. Right, like so. Yeah, just trying to come up with a new kid. Like, for example, maybe I'll come back to it but
Leighann Lovely 34:58
ya know, I mean, that was write that. And I completely agree, but here, I'm gonna throw this, I'm gonna throw you for a loop now on something because as we talk about the younger generation and educating themselves, and that kind of thing I want to ask you, you know, again, this is going to kind of throw you for a loop on everything now, because we've now we've now learned, you know, that, you know, the experience, the, the understanding of that, within going into these jobs, we've, we've started to understand more and more that the cultural fit within organizations as well the important and that person, you know, we, right, we've started to get that culture, and a person fitting into their environment, and it can look a wild, lot wildly different. And you when you said education, and educating themselves, it sparked something in me, do you? Maybe you know, what I'm gonna ask, do you think that companies are finally starting to understand that having a degree specific and this excludes some industries, obviously, you cannot be a doctor without a going to medical school, you can't be an accountant, or a CPA, if you don't go and get your CPE can't be a lawyer, blah, blah, you get it? But do you think that more industries have come to understand that experience, hands on experience is equivalent to educational experience, and that culture fit is more important than experience because you can train for skills?
Adam Gellert 36:38
100% 100% 100% 100% it's, you know, attitude over skills, its experiences, you know, it takes 10,000 plus hours to be any good and even close to good at something. So, you know, I tell young people, they're like, oh, what should I do? Where should I start, just try doing things and do so many things that, you know, assault, go solve problems and figure it out and feel like, what, what are you like, really the best app because people are coming to you, if you're the best at something, and you're experienced at it. I mean, even doctors, you know, once they get the job, and they've hit a certain level of experience, they don't go back to them and say, hey, you know, you graduated top of your class, they go no, like, I want to work with the surgeon that did 1000 heart surgeries, not this one surgeon that, you know, went to Harvard. Right. So it doesn't even, you know, yeah, school is required for obviously, certain jobs, but, you know, most of them are required and talking about the speed at which things move. I mean, there's so many ways to get educated for free, right now, if you have access to a laptop, and, you know, internet, which a lot of people also don't have, which, you know, I really believe in, in charities that, you know, help people get laptops and access to internet, because that's, that's where education, you know, it's access, right. And for diversity, and, you know, pay parity, it's like getting that access, right. So, but, but, you know, going off a little bit, but I think that, you know, the most important thing is to just really, like educate yourself on what you like, and keep trying new things, right. So
Leighann Lovely 38:28
well, in today's world, you can go into coffee shops, and have free internet. Excuse me, you can go into, you know, here in I know, in, you know, in most in most of the states, I'm not 100% sure about Canada, but any public library has computers that you can now go in and utilize their computers to free at free and have internet access. So I mean, there is an any Workforce Development Company, you know, place so there are, you know, kiosks that you can go into a workforce development, and those are, you know, government run here in the United States where you can ask for assistance to get free internet access, you just have to want to do it and have the time. So they don't I mean, it's, it's really are you willing to put in the time, so there is a million free different places that you can go to get access? And then I mean, there is LinkedIn offers, you know, free webinars and courses and I mean, there is 1,000,001 different ways that you can now educate yourself
Adam Gellert 39:47
for free Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And you know, one of the funny things is like, you know, in job description, they say, Hey, this is this is required. I mean, there are these these these things that are required that anyone can get caught. have access to and actually really get really, really good at. You know, one example is going in a sales role as example HubSpot is, you know, a customer relationship management platform, it's probably the one of the most popular in the world other than Salesforce. And so, you know, it's funny to me, how many times founders or hiring managers asked me hey, like, we won't talk to somebody, unless they have experience with HubSpot. I mean, you give somebody a crash course. And then in a day and an hour and have them be amazing. And the candidates also are, you know, if you are seeing these jobs, and you're saying, Oh, I don't have experience with that, I mean, you could pretty much get experience with anything by just going and asking going to a company and saying, Hey, like, I'd really like to learn about this. HubSpot has, you know, the biggest amount of videos and blogs on how to use their product, if you reached out to them and said, Hey, I want to get a job, you know, we're using your product is required. Can you help me with this? I'm sure they would say yes. Right. So it's just about creating those, and pushing those opportunities for what you want. So if you, you know, are in a role right now, where you're feeling stuck, because you don't have experience with something else that's required. You know, as long as it's not a degree, and it doesn't cost you money, and there are certain barriers to entry. Of course, like, there are certain, you know, I don't want to say that there are limitations at all. But, you know, for the most part, you know, with those things, you could get educated on that. Right,
Leighann Lovely 41:27
right. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, there's, there's so much available to, to individuals out there now. And I, I'm gonna go back to a point that you made earlier that, that there are more jobs than there are people, which means that anybody who is not working right now, and I mean, they shouldn't be, but the system that we have in place is broken. And it makes it hard for people to get hired. So individuals, like you, who are attempting to create systems, you know, are the ones who are really, you know, the, the pioneers in this in this industry, right, trying to find a way to make the candidate experience positive, and make the make it easier for the company to, you know, allow the proper resumes to come across their desk, you know, to just view the ones that are right for their role. I mean, so let me ask you this, when you started in this industry, did you think that you were going to end up two decades in?
Adam Gellert 43:02
No, definitely not. I didn't even know where recruiting was. Right. So someone, you know, offered me a job. And I was like, What the heck is recruiting? And they said, you know, you, you get paid to, you know, match a person with a company, right? I was like, Oh, this sounds interesting. Do you think I'll be good at it? And they said, Yeah, so somebody had to give me that opportunity. Right. They knew they'd worked with me previously. So they knew that I had a good attitude. Good. Great. I showed up. I care, right. So like, what I typically look for is trust, attitude, passion. I think that's kind of like the core of any role doesn't matter what it is where it is, you know, or anything, right. And, and so yeah, I mean, just to answer your question, simply, I don't, I didn't know. But I just became obsessed with, you know, solving this problem, and just continuing to do better and continuing to be curious and think about things. And ask questions. And, you know, I don't have all the answers still, right. Like, I still learn from a lot of people like you and other people, right? have, you know, different scenarios that come up? And I think that that's what makes this industry and an industry that you care about? So interesting, right? So, but it could be applied to anything, you know, skilled trades, anything, getting curious, you know, you could you know, you could create a house or you could create a whole residential community. Like, there's just so many different options, right, so
Leighann Lovely 44:35
awesome. So I'm gonna ask you the question of the season. What do you think will go down in the history books from what the world has experienced over the last three years?
Adam Gellert 44:47
Yeah, I think like, my mind goes to that one thing that I talked about before, which is the double career system. I think that's where people will say, Okay, this is What changed, most people had one job, one sort of like residents, and now people are going and having multiple, because I just think that that's the way that the world is moving towards. And, you know, and what's required. And I think the flexibility of get a technology is going to be able to do most of what you can do, which should essentially free up a lot of time, you're going to have time to pursue a passion project, a skills project, money making project. So that that's what I think
Leighann Lovely 45:38
that's awesome. And I agree. I think the world was snapped awake. I just I feel like that. As much as we were all divided, and, you know, stuck at home, I feel like everybody woke up and started talking, and started communicating in a way that they never had before. More so than, you know, people were like, well, I'm me, I started a new relationship with my own brother that I had never had before. I started talking to him more. But he lives in Seattle, because all of the sudden I'm like, Oh, my God, I can zoom with him and his family. So I feel like the world was snapped awake. And unfortunately, a lot of things came to light that were not so positive and positive. A lot of mental health issues. And a lot of the world was snapped awake. And people found hobbies, they found passion projects, they found that kind of stuff. So if somebody wanted to reach out to you, how would they go about doing that?
Adam Gellert 46:43
Yeah, thanks so much. I think LinkedIn is is, you know, is the best place if you want to follow me there connect with me there. So it's Adam Geller, and I run Linkous group and the hired hippo. And so that would be like the number one place. I mean, obviously, I'm on all the other socials just about to release a personal site, recruiter adam.com. So those two places would be ideal.
Leighann Lovely 47:12
Excellent. And that'll be in the show notes. So if you want to reach out to Adam, you can check the show notes for his LinkedIn, or for his personal site that will, will listen on there as well. So Adam, thank you so much for joining me and having this conversation. It's been an absolute pleasure, pleasure and some really great insight and great information.
Adam Gellert 47:33
Awesome. Thanks very much for having me. This was a lot of fun. So thank you.
Leighann Lovely 47:38
Thank you again for listening to Let's Talk HR. I appreciate your time and support without you the audience this would not be possible. So don't forget that if you enjoyed this episode, to follow us, like us or share us. Have a wonderful day.